Barak Baby!

1. Don 9:25 AM

   Better? A future of no personal choice, no self-reliance, no individuality, dependance on the government for all our wants and needs, higher taxes, attacks on personal success... yeah, that sounds better to me.

    
2. KHM 12:02 PM

   Hi Lyman--things are pretty much the way you left them here in the states; Don still doesn't like the Dems' way of doing business!
   
   Let us now begin to campaign for Mr. Obama to appoint Sen. Clinton as his Secretary of Health and Human Services. If he does, I might retire my Donna Shalala poster...

    
3. Layla and Delia 12:49 PM

   So, since he's your man and all, don't you think you should start spelling his name correctly? :)
   Julie

    
4. Don 1:43 PM

   What is there to like, unless you enjoy having your money taken away from you and given to someone who thinks they deserve it more. I remember when liberals wanted government out our lives, now they want the government to control everything aspect of our lives.

    
5. KHM 2:41 PM

   actually, no; that's not what this liberal wants, Don. Wrong.

    
6. Don 5:12 PM

   Well that is what you are going to get whether you want it or not. Obama is the most liberal Senator in the Senate, and will be a very liberal President. He will most likely have a filibuster proof Congress. They will be taking over health-care, raising taxes on the rich, what ever rich means, until that isn't enough to pay for the programs they will pass, then they will raise taxes on the rest of us.
   
   What exactly is it that you do want?

    
7. KHM 6:10 PM

   Here's the thing, Don. To me, to others "Liberal" = "Great", "Better", "Best".
   
   Making sure all citizens have quality health care? Check; I dig that. The government being accountable for it? Dig that, too.
   
   Compared to spending my tax dollars on defense or killing people, I much prefer the social programs. And just in case you're wondering, would I prefer to NOT pay taxes at the expense of the health of fellow citizens? NO.

    
8. Don 7:29 PM

   But defense is a true function of the federal government, providing health care is not.
   
   If you want to take every dime you make and provide health care, food, shelter to others, I think that is great. Just don't ask the government to take my money and do the same. I prefer to give my money to charities that provide for the needy. Liberals seem to be all about choice until it comes to taking my money and giving it away, then they seem to know best.
   
   From every indication, putting the government in charge of health care, will not make it better. Everyone will have health care, and it will suck for everyone.

    
9. KHM 9:14 PM

   By what determination do you assert that defense is a legitimate federal function while health care is not?
   
   We agree on one thing: we agree that our country is in great danger of going to hell in a handbasket. I'll think its because of the way you think and you'll say its because of the way I think. Let's take our thoughts to our voting stations each and every time we have the opportunity and allow our leaders to do the bidding of the voters... however flawed our elections may be these days...
   
   Often in your writings, I hear only ,"mine, mine, mine". I have it on excellent recommendation that you're a lovely man. I'm going to take their word on it ;-) I wonder if you might share with some of us, perhaps in your own blog, what you consider to be legitimate uses of tax dollars?
   
   Lyman, sorry to hijack your comments. You know how I am...

    
10. Lyman 12:56 AM

    Money does not equal freedom.
    Money does not equal justice.
    
    Don for you to say a future with Obama as a president would mean "no personal choice" just goes to show how dramatic and belittling your arguments are. If you could simply speak to your own beliefs instead of trying to predict the future of an entire country under one man's presidency then maybe you wouldn't sound like such a loon. You are no Nostradamus. Predict for me who will win the Superbowl next year, I'll be sure to put my money on the other team.

     
11. Don 5:47 AM

    Lyman - Kathy and I disagree, but we always seem to be able to do so graciously. You one the other hand always seem to get personal and call people names. Why can you not simply disagree? You can't present a sound, rational arguement for what you believe, so you get nasty. I don't understand it.
    
    As to Obama and personal choice. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that the last time Hillary sat down and came up with a health care plan, she would have made it illegal to go to a doctor and pay for it with your own money. I think it is a safe bet his plan will be pretty much the same.
    
    Kathy - I will address you questions on my blog.

     
12. Drew 7:21 AM

    Really Lyman, your ego astounds me. It would seem that you are completely incapable of debating an issue with someone who disagrees with your opinion without resorting to names. I had stayed away from Don and Kathy's debate this time, but within the span of 6 sentences, you managed to insult the man at least twice because he gave a belief that was different than yours. He didn't say anything beyond his belief (with stated reasons) that he was concerned about a Barack presidency any more than you gave your belief that a Barack presidency will be a "better future." Your belief is right and the rest of us are "loons" and "dramatic".
    
    I happen to agree with Don in that I'm not optimistic about the future of my personal freedoms with the most socialist and liberal Senator in Congress, but I wouldn't call Kathy a "loon" because she thinks differently. Yet that is exactly how you consistently conclude your arguements.
    
    But that's just my belief...

     
13. Lyman 5:21 PM

    Predicting a better future and claiming "a future of no individuality" and "attacks on personal success" are two vastly different things. Kathy's given no such prediction that is so exaggerated and dramatic, if she has please bring it to my attention, I'd love to re-read it.
    
    Suggesting that I want a future with "no personal choice" is just as insulting as anything I said, the insinuation that I am communist which inevitably comes from Don whenever politics pops up on my blog is just as insulting as anything I've posted. Yet you didn't see the need to come to my defense then.
    
    What's wrong with posing the question "don't you think Barack's health care plan will raise taxes?" or "I don't see how X will be better than Y when Barack is president"? That's how you approach a topic when you want to debate, not with sarcasm and belittlement. If you want sarcasm and belittlement then you should expect it in return.

     
14. KHM 5:51 PM

    I don't care for the remarks about socialists or marxists that often find their ways into these threads. I think this experiment in "democracy" is robust enough to consider a very wide range of governmental functions---to label anything that goes against your own personal preference or interpretations as associated with failed socialist ventures such as the Soviets---I'd have to agree is belittling.

     
15. Don 7:17 PM

    Actually your point of a “better future” and mine of a “future of no individuality” are actually the same. They are both opinions. Neither of us have any proof, not now, not today. You see an Obama presidency as a great thing; I see it as potential disaster. Again both are opinions.
    
    I never suggested or implied, you want a future with “no personal choice”. I said that is what we will be getting, in my opinion. I have never called you a Communist, and I never implied anything close to that anywhere in this thread. In the past, I have pointed out that you, and others, seem to have a philosophy that is similar to Karl Marx’s “from each according to their ability, to each according to their needs”, but again, I never inferred that in this thread.
    
    I did not belittle, and there was no sarcasm in anything I posted. I believe everything I said here. I believe if Obama is elected, we will loose personal freedoms. He will attempt, and I believe succeed, in taking away my freedom to choose my own health care and many other personal freedoms. That is my opinion. It is not an attack on you, or Kathy or anyone else who thinks differently, it is an opinion. Differing opinions are not personal attacks.
    
    I have reread this thread a couple of times and I cannot fine anywhere I stated or implied anything regarding communism, socialism, marxism, etc. I believe in the past I have been called or implied to be hard-hearted, cold, uncaring, insensitive, and just being conservative is a proof that I am ignorant, but yet I am belittling.

     
16. Lyman 8:00 PM

    "Better? ... yeah, that sounds better to me."
    
    This statement is the very DEFINITION of sarcasm. Unless of course you actually do feel that Obama will bring a better future, which of course you don't.
    
    Your allusions to communism have not come in this thread but in threads past. I thought another insinuation might be coming soon as it has before.
    
    Differing opinions are not personal attacks but you are not presenting an opinion. You are telling me the outcome of a presidency as if I were a child and couldn't see the gloom and doom ahead. Tell me what you don't like about his policies, don't tell the future like some all-knowing soothsayer. It's condescending. The way you presented your beliefs about Obama in your last post were much more conducive to an actual discussion not just a rant.

     
17. KHM 2:35 PM

    From a purely academic perspective, I am inclined to support the ideals of Karl Marx's work. I'm not a fan of Marxism, per se but I actually do think a bit more Marxist influence in our culture would be good. Again, I think this essentially comes down to a personal aversion to selfishness and elevation of the individual over the common good---for how can the larger population grow and succeed if its individual members languish and become disenfranchised?
    
    In the last 8 years we've experienced unacceptable losses of personal freedoms and the government has engaged in such blatant disregard for personal privacy that I really can't imagine any loss of personal freedom that could be worse. Indeed, I look to either of the presumptive Presidential candidates to reverse many of these and to improve the situation, not make it worse.
    
    Based on the policy statements and white papers I've read, no one is advocating the element of choice in health care for individuals who currently have the means and access to care. I do think that folks that require governmental support for their health care will have limited choices but as these may well be their first opportunities to make a choice, I'm sure it won't feel like a loss.

     
18. Lyman 7:03 PM

    After thinking about this the past day or so I guess my real question for you Don is, what did you hope to accomplish by posting something like that? You know we disagree about these things, you know our discussions have become heated in the past, why would you post a sarcastic jab and make completely outrageous predictions about a candidate I've been so excited about? You can't honestly tell me you were trying to foster a productive discussion being sarcastic like that. Why? You were trying to provoke me I guess. Mission accomplished but now I'm the big ol' meanie? I don't get it.
    
    I don't understand why you care so much about what I think anyway, I don't seek you out online to tell you why your opinions suck.
    
    And please don't bring up the "you don't like people disagreeing with you" line. It's cheap and untrue.

     
19. Don 7:30 PM

    I am not trying to provoke you or anyone else to anger. I am trying to figure why you and others with similar political opinions believe what you do. I fail to see how Obama, or anyone that liberal, is a step to a better future. Maybe a better future for me, since I may personally benefit, but I will be dead and gone when my grandchildren have to pay for the social programs he wants to implement. I want more than that for your children and my grandchildren.
    
    I may say and believe you are wrong, but I have never said your opinions suck. I have these same arguments with people that I consider to be friends. To me, you seem to take them too personal. I mean no harm. I enjoy challenging others and in turn myself, to their beliefs. If I can't defend my position, and tell you why I believe what I believe, then I haven't given it much thought.
    
    I don't come to your blog to only leave nasty comments. If I am not wrong, I congratulated you recently when you signed on with Dean Bass guitars. In fact, I was the first to leave you a comment.
    
    Feel free to visit my blog whenever you like. There will be plenty of political comments and maybe even some lighter fare occasionally. In any event, leave a comment either way, I can take it.

     
20. Lyman 6:51 AM

    If you are not trying to provoke me please refrain from sarcasm and skewed comments like a "future of no individuality", I don't even think Anne Coulter would say something so absurd.
    
    If you were really trying to figure out why I feel the way I do you would steer clear of such inflammatory rhetoric and actually ask a question or two.

     
21. Don 7:11 AM

    I give up Lyman. I'm sarcastic and apparently you are nasty. I tried to make peace in my previous comment, and you come back that I am worse than Anne Coulter, which we all know in a liberals mind is about as bad as you can be.
    
    "If you were really trying to figure out why I feel the way I do you would steer clear of such inflammatory rhetoric and actually ask a question or two."
    
    Maybe you should heed your own advise.

     
22. KHM 8:41 AM

    Lyman:
    
    LYFE
    
    You're no meanie.
    
    I'll take some responsibility here for jumping in on Don's remarks since he and I also disagree. But the timing and all---I've been pretty fired up about the conclusion of the primary so I couldn't just walk away from the discussion and therefore---Don and I had our usual little party here. Sorry about hijacking your comments.
    
    I know, you know, we all know that saying something "sucks" means anything from its the worst thing in the world to it makes me uncomfortable, unhappy, isn't what I want. Such versatility in one word...
    kat

     
23. Lyman 8:30 PM

    Heed my own advice? I'm not the one hopping on to any celebratory post of yours trying to smack it down. And true to form you put words in my mouth, I never said you were 'worse' then Anne Coulter. I'm glad it appears as if we're done with this line of 'conversation'.
    
    No problem Kathy, I actually don't mind any back-and-forth on my blog just as long as I don't get blamed for using the same rhetoric as others.

     

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